Why do people cheat Part 2 Relationship expert Esther Perel talks to Tony about infidelity, intimac
what is the key to passion why do we feel that magnetic pole that overwhelming draw to another person I have one word for you polarity as Tony says things in common make a relationship work but it’s the differences that spark the passion and those differences are all about our core energies see we all have both masculine and feminine energy and your leading energy reflects your inner nature and values it’s not based on gender women can have masculine cores and men can have feminine course but the more opposed the sexual energies are between two people in a relationship the stronger that attraction will be so many of us though lose that passion over time when feminine energies put on a masculine mask or when masculine energies were a feminine mask that’s why if you want to ignite that spark again in your relationship it’s absolutely key for both you and your partner to cultivate your core energy or if you’re single and you want to attract someone of the opposite energy you must learn how to embrace your feminine or masculine core to learn more about the keys to polarity and to discover if you’re masculine or feminine in your own core take our five minute quiz go to tony robbins comm slash polarity that’s pol AR i see why and take that test today why do people cheat even those in happy marriages and what can Affairs help us understand about intimacy we tend to think that the active infidelity is the ultimate betrayal we judge those who do it we shroud them in shame we dismiss them label them categorize them as cheaters we also judge people who stay in relationships after being cheated on we often do so because we don’t have a complete understanding of infidelity in the last episode you heard Tony and Esther Perel talk about who we are in our relationships and what we want in our partners and now in this intimate conversation they dive into the complex world of infidelity challenging assumptions and cultural conditioning to offer a new look at affairs what you learn may surprise you even if you’ve never experienced infidelity in a relationship odds are you know someone who has this episode will not only allow you to approach the subject of betrayal with much more empathy and understanding it’ll also give you a deeper look at our basic human needs and why we do this seemingly unthinkable when it comes to our intimate relationship so anything having to do with novelty with surprise with with protecting an erotic space all of those things is where people will reconnect sexually I want you to make love with your clothes on most people after they are together first they undress then they go into the bed and then they start to do the deeds you know many people remember the reason that when they think about moments of passion they think about making out actually they think about do you think about tearing each other’s first clothes off as well but a lot of it is actually it’s everything the before it’s the uncertainty will it happen weren’t it happen where is this going you know I want you to go and set the room up create an environment and just do everything that you don’t typically do if typically were first undressed and you go to bed don’t ever take your clothes off just play with the play with the parts of you that you have completely left out and the reason it became so clear to me is because now that I’ve written and worked on infidelity for all these years everybody was talking about reconnecting with the last parts of themselves hmm and that’s really what people often are looking for in relations aren’t they yep yep it’s the most parts of yourself you know they are all around your house just go there don’t just go for the surest bet because it works because in passion what works is a disaster well you know what’s ironic is and they stop people what makes a relationship work is things in common it’s certainty what makes a relationship passionate is differences different energies different mysteries different elements and it’s not different values but it’s those differences that make something passionate and so that’s the dynamic is we always talk about you know the six human needs I can tell you in my own life I cannot complain yeah I grew up an environment where for different fathers I didn’t want to ever have a divorce and I was so unhappy in the very beginning of the relationship but I got my love with the children that pretty much suppli mated in because they weren’t my blood children you know I was 24 years of old man had a 17 year old son instantly she was 13 years my senior an 11 year old daughter a 5 year old son and then a boy on the way and so as they grew up and began to expand I can remember vividly when the kids were no longer there it was like the love was no longer there because we were such different people no one tells you how to pick your partner and I can remember vividly for my achiever friends listening you have unstaged or and what to me would have been you know ecstasy at that time it was fun my biggest vision I had 13,000 people in New York at the Continental Center and I’m doing what I love and you know when you serve people so much so much love comes back to you and I was experiencing so much of that and then a person came up on the stage and whispered in my ear my company had gone public that day and they said your stocks worth 400 million dollars and I was like oh my god this is incredible and then I went right back to the I was doing which really fulfilled me and I was high as a kite at all day more really from doing what I love then even the economics so silly as that sounds but when I went home that night I was depressed and the reason was because I was adapting I constantly changed I became a pleaser you know you described that person that if you go away you left me alone it’s like that’s what happened to my childhood so it’s like I came home and I was so unhappy because I was being something I wasn’t to try to please this first person’s a good human being but were so different and I finally made the decision I said you know and I’m not gonna be one of those vh1 movies you know cuz TV shows if you’re old enough to remember where they used to always have a behind the music they call it that’s right there and they they you know that we this great rock group and they’d hit the peak of their life and then somebody an overdose hug drugs are drive their car into a wall or something so the toughest decision of my life was to end that relationship and it was the best decision because it led to my saged my body pearl and we’ve been together 18 years in the best eighteen years of my life but most people will not make those decisions and the way I did as I sat down I said what do I really want instead of judging my partner what do I want and then as you and I both talked about who do I gotta become to attract that kind of person keep that person engaged with the rest of my life so that was my focus but today what happens for most people is affairs and you’ve been putting some expertise into that and I know what your next book that’s coming out right away so tell me I know any when you go to conferences the first question people ask you it’s like what percentage of people have affairs tell us the percentage but more importantly what creates an affair today yeah maybe healed so just to put this in context second it’s it’s a very strange thing to say right I wrote a book about affairs I wrote a book about relationships and in order to understand what makes good relationships I can’t just go and look at the ones that work as planned I actually had to go and look at the ones where there is betrayal where there was a violation of trust where there is deception it’s from looking at those relationships that I can really blame the lessons of what makes a good relationship it’s very interesting instead instead of going to look for those who could inspire I went to work at the inspiration from those who flunked and those who went through the crisis and then those who actually reimbursed from it and that’s when I really got a sense as to what makes a good relationship it’s it took me on a journey that I didn’t anticipate at all so it’s through the lens of affairs but it’s really if you’d if you read this book it’s it’s almost it will it will give you everything you need to know about being a couple that remains connected and passionate at least for a long time so I’m 35 years with Jack you know and and I always say we have had many marriages like most people these days we’ve had at least two and maybe three it’s just that I’ve done it with the same person constantly kind of reinvent and recreate and but that’s what people are doing they’re doing it through their affairs they’re doing it through a new partner or they’re doing it with the same partner in the end if we don’t grow if we don’t change we dry up and we die and so in the name of that growth and that change people will do all kinds of things I waiting in captivity looked at the dilemmas of desire inside the relationship then the state of affairs looks as what happens when desire goes looking elsewhere and I wanted to look at affairs because if I ask a new audience if I ever come back to date with destiny and I look at is thousands of people and I say how many of you have been affected by infidelity 80% or more of the people will raise their hand it is an experience I would meet my mother had four fathers I used to meet I met Jim Robbins who adopt would be my fourth father at bojack’s which is like a Denny’s because my mom couldn’t get out and I was the one who had to go tell her affairs she’s not there yet and then leaked my brain out but I loved my mother so much that I had to make it okay but at the same time it didn’t feel okay to me at all so but you know so I think everybody’s affected by affairs to some extent whether they realize it or not because somewhere in their family there’s been one even if they’ve not been affected by one person that’s right that’s you’ve been the child if you’ve been disabled enough you’ve been the lover you’ve been through you’ve been the victim of it you’ve been the friend of it who is watching I mean it is one of the most common experiences and one of the least understood it is look extraordinarily common for two reasons one because women are closing the gender gap very fast you know and until recently infidelity was basically a license for men and a threat to her life for women paid to being killed she still can be in nine countries today or both room or two child mortality pregnancy you name it you know she was ruined either financially either by reputation either by by death by a natural death so what has really really changed is that women have closed the gender gap give the woman a car and then we’ll know what she really wants to do and maybe she’s not nearly as domesticated as everybody has wanted to make it look in Saudi Arabia that’s exactly where this image came from and that’s one reason why we would say it’s it’s it’s rampant and the other thing is because the definition of infidelity has been rather a stick you know what do we talk about when we talk about cheating are we talking about just having an affair are we talking about porn are we talking about massages with happy ending are we talking about chat rooms are we talking about sugar diets are we talking what and the definition seems to be expanding all the time there are more and more things which we today experience and and described as being across the line so because of those two things infidelity is on the rise all the time and the third reason while it is higher than we think is because everybody lies about it everybody lies about it so it’s very hard to have any statistics and the way people lie about it is that men have always lied to the up men exaggerate and women under-represent because men get boosted by talking about how many conquests they have had whereas women get shunned and judged for it so the women have always lied by making it less and men have always lied by pretending it was more today I think there are two primary categories you know there are the reasons that have to do with the relationship one is in the feeling of neglect the feeling of indifference the feelings of contempt the feelings of loneliness in particular the feelings of sexual frustration the feelings of badness inside things that really emerge from a relationship that that has become either intensely conflictual or intensely estranged which is another flipside of that and where people basically are hungry for want for care for attention for presence for someone who laughs at their jokes for someone who appreciates them for the basics of human nourishments which they no longer feel at home and so typically of course people say then why don’t they divorce because it’s not so simple for everybody because there are a lot of other considerations that happen inside the Meritor inside a committed relationship that people also feel beholden to but there’s a whole other group that I find much more interesting and that’s the notion that even in happy marriages people cheat so you see when I wrote mating in captivity it would not have been interesting to write a book of people who can’t stand each other I don’t want to have any sex with each other it’s kind of obvious what really was interesting to me is what you asked me before it’s all these people who would come to my workshops to my office to you our sessions together to say we love each other very much we have no sex now that becomes interesting how come what happens there and then the same thing happened around infidelity to talk about bad marriages bad relationships all sorts where people therefore stray it’s kind of obvious isn’t it they’ve done this forever you know but to talk about the fact that people do this even when they come in and they say I love my partner I would never want to leave my partner I’m having an affair now and become curious what is that about you know and so I’ve gone for the for the ones that are not so simple it’s not about bacteriology it’s not about or borderline issues or addiction or attachment issues it’s people who are committed who love their partner and who are experiencing a part of themselves in another relationship that they don’t bring home and did not because they can’t find it at home sometimes but because they don’t want it at home and that became a whole new thing and that potent the Ascension line that came up over the six years of that is people who would say all over the world people would say when they describe their affair that they felt alive and that a knife was meant that it was an experience where they didn’t feel that sense of responsibility burden obligation that they had to their family which they loved but which they didn’t know how to diminish in order to connect again with their passion and their aliveness it wasn’t sex it was desire and aliveness and then they said I said maybe sometimes when people have an affair it’s not that they want to leave the person that they are with but they want to leave the person that they have themselves become and it’s yes in the present and it’s not that they want to find another partner what I’m looking for is another self and so I began to think when I think about affairs it’s always a dual perspective it’s a growth and expansion and self-discovery on one side hurt betrayal and neglect or rejection on the other side and it’s really what it did to you and what it meant to me at the heart of affairs you have betrayal and at the heart of affairs you have longing and loss you know longing for the rest parts of oneself mmm that makes so much sense you know I’ve always said to couples you know you and you and I both know the six you needs and many of my audience knows it need for certainty the need for uncertainty variety that’s that that same pallets that we happen to be wanting something and needing something simultaneously they need to feel significant unique and special the need to fill love and connection to be significant you got to be special separate to be connected you got to be together and then the spiritual needs to grow to contribute I always thought couples you know whenever I hear couples they always say I gave him or I gave her everything and I always say everything except what they needed given what they need it and leave them I’ve never heard anybody say and maybe I don’t know fifty thousand couples or a hundred thousand couples have probably dealt with over time I’ve never heard somebody say you know I have so much certainty with him or with her that they love me and and they’re always surprising me there’s just so much variety in their relationship and I feel like the most important person on earth to them so significant and we have such deep love and we’re growing and contributing I want the F out of here nobody does that and what we I think what happens is that people make judgments in these relationships and they don’t understand I’ve had without mentioning names if that image names unless the person talks about this pretty private but a very famous person I could tell you without telling you their name who everyone listening and just about any country would know that’s how famous a woman incredibly brilliant lady a person of tremendous intelligence a personal huge heart a person beloved by people around the world a person is very successful in relationships lots of friends very successful financially and this woman came to me in confidence and just said I hate myself because she said I’m having this affair it’s been going on forever but I can’t break it off and what’s wrong and what you always find out I always tell people I say just look at these six needs and measuring zero to ten I said tell me about your husband you know let’s look at the first need of certainty how certain are you loves him zero to ten and she’ll say oh a total 10 he totally loves me I love him and that’s a okay how about variety and you’ll see this drop off almost always like well a lot of surprises zero to 10 you know maybe a three and they really mean it too you know and then I’ll say well tell me about you know how significant distance is must make you feel they said today I just don’t feel significant with them I’d say you know minus one and then I’ll say how about you know the idea that this person that you know you have this deep love and almost always with that person the person that’s they’re married to you’ll say oh my god I have such a deep love with this person so they have certainly loved mat by that person growth not so much contribution a little bit but also you tell me about your fear and then they light up like a Christmas tree and they’ll say Oh and I’ll say how certain are you that they love you be with you forever and they go uh zero to ten because six have that uncertainty now go how about variety oh my god a twenty I mean I can’t stop thinking about him they’re surprised maybe this they do that how significant they make you feel oh my god like the most important person must be constantly thinking about me sharing um love you well yeah I know she loves me you know so what I almost always find is people split up sometimes and they’re trying to meet they mean some of their needs to their partners you’ve described those stability type ones and then they meet some of the other needs somebody else but it violates their own values like this woman honesty is who she is and she’s just tearing herself up and I try to explain to people people violate their own values to meet their needs if you think you’re gonna lose love and love is the thing you value most people will lie even though they’re not a liar and they feel bad about it and so I think it’s really important for people listening to understand that we recreate these triggers in each other and that if if you really understand your partner’s needs and can fill your partner’s needs and you can make sure you’re fitting all of them the variety of the significance ones that’s when your personal relationship your intimate relationship can feel like an affair yes you know my wife has so many personalities I feel like I’ve had multiple affairs in so many different ways but tell me how do you heat a lot of people think you know today you said something in one of your talks that I saw you said the new shame is staying leave it on that you know what is what is keeping people from healing these things and developing a new level of relationship what is it in our culture that’s doing that and how do you heal a relationship can be healed from an affair so everything you just said is music to my ears I mean we speak it’s it’s I reminded of how close our view and our language is you know you have your vocabulary but but it’s exactly that they split off the adventure on one side the freedom the novelty the surprise and all of that and then the other per side becomes the stability the security the safety and the mirth and and the reason I asked the question is that what because the majority of the people that I work with are not chronic cheaters they’re not philanderers they are actually people who often have been devoted loyal and thoughtful for decades and one build across a line that they never thought that they would cross and so the question always was for a glimmer of what why would people be willing to risk everything they’ve built including the things they’ve put in place themselves all the rooms that have put in place why would they transgress that to experience what what is it that people are going for and that surprised that novelty that that aliveness that transcendence what the world you know you put the word suit is really it’s like the crown of the sirens it’s just irresistible it they’ll destroy everything for that and that has so much not to do just with sex it’s very more complicated and when people begin to understand that they also understand that it’s not always the fault of the marriage it’s not marriage who did this to you it’s also what you are not to do to yourself inside your marriage and what happened between you and your partner so the things that help people recover from an affair and there’s multiple affairs and not every one of them can be recovered from let’s be really clear about that but the first thing is this no matter what it meant for me no matter how important it was it did hurt you and it was a violation of an agreement that we had we’re talking about affairs we’re not talking about open or non-monogamy we talk about people who went and did something in secrets and for that I need to be able to acknowledge that I hurt you so the first thing when people know from any history of trauma is the acknowledgment of the wrongdoing I know I hurt you this was a hurtful thing to do that acknowledgement the remorse and the guilt that comes for that even if I don’t feel guilty about the affair itself even if I’d find complete justification and an entitlement in my affair an affair is always a plot of entitlement ultimately it’s something I did for myself some fish this is a given and Putin has some fish in there relationships and all kinds of ways not just by having affairs for that matter so the first thing is my acknowledgement the guilt did the remorse the second one is my turn proving to you how much I want to stay with you and that means that I give you back your value because in an affair basically you’ve been devalued you’ve been replaced by someone else and that making you the trust is not the trust that I won’t do it again the trust is the trust that I love you and I want to be with you and I think that’s one of the big misconceptions that often people have is like how can I trust him or her to what to not think about the other person to not go to not do it again that’s so what if they don’t do it again but they stay cold like you know had like an ice block that’s that’s a useless you want the person to be back with you to claim you again like they did in the beginning and this is why sometimes people will tell you in the aftermath of an affair people are having levels of conversations at the level of depth and honesty that they haven’t had in years and sex like they haven’t had in years because they find themselves back at the beginning because nothing is certain anymore that’s it exactly what you described by finally brought the edge home but from that place that could start to rebuild and so the first crisis phase is really the doer has to be responsive to the person who was hurt and in the second phase it’s really more what it did to you and what it meant for me and it’s me understanding why you did this how you got there and for that you have to really have a whole different set of questions than the typical you know give me the list of all the hotels that you were at that tells you nothing that tells you nothing what you really want to understand is what was that like for you we are nowhere and and how was it and how is it for you to come home and and you have to feel okay to say I will I love this person I hate this person and I love this person I want to teach you and I want to hold you and I want you to get the cow and I want you to kiss me and all of these contradictory feelings are happening all at once and at this particular moment I feel more alive with you than I probably have felt in years and I am in pain by the life and it’s this mind that you’re in at this point and from that place I have to tell dozens hundreds of people it’s totally okay to say I will work this true because I still like you we despite the fact that you’ve done all of this to me or I still want to be with you and not to feel that the shame in saying because the only thing today that has dignity is to leave that’s crazy it’s like people tell i watch couples do this and I watch the Pete friends around I’m saying both men and women just dump them get rid of it let me invest it 10 20 30 years they actually do love each other but the social influence today is so different why I think it’s a number of things first of all for many many years years years years years when man cheated women had no option but to stay you know this is the Hillary Clinton story right this is a lot of people who – never forgave her for that because well she could have left it’s the fact that she chose to stay when she had the option to go that’s the new shame and therefore many people didn’t have a secret from their own friends because they can’t speak to their friends because though they will tell them is throw the dog on the curb you know click to kick the bitch out of the house so it’s this bizarre thing that now I have a secret from the people who should help me you know about what my partner did to me it’s it really is a strange situation so the first thing is I think for many women they had no option and so now that there is an option the senses you really should go the second thing is the infidelity has become the leading cause of divorce in the West because it’s become the ultimate betrayal because it shatters the grand ambition of love because I thought I had found the one and this tells me I’m not I’m not your one I actually am replaceable I’m not indispensable and that shatters my identity which it doesn’t do in the traditional world at all you know this is not what it’s about and and this idea that it’s become a bigger in you know in the United States people are more judgmental of infidelity than they are of cloning of suicide of many other things it’s it’s a bigger betrayal than anything else it’s very very interesting how this has become the the break of the contract you can steal my money you can beat me you can do a lot of things you can be contemptuous to me you can be neglectful of me none of these other betrayals people will say you should leave you should leave you should leave this one it’s like one strike and you’re out and that means to me and is that true worldwide that was like it you know in place like France or places that eight years and they’re a different cultural association ours the American culture kind of led to the whole woman I think the American culture has spread I mean this comes with individualism as well if in France also infidelity is a leading cause of divorce and for all of you who think I have a French accent and from the Flemish part of Belgium but what is different in France is that the issue is not I lived because you cheated on me the issue is I live because you fell in love with someone else interesting so there’s the distinction you know whenever couples go through this my whole component is to get both to own it because like you said the person had the affair I don’t support that in any way shape or form but at the same time you no matter how thin you slice it there’s two sides and there’s these other things that people do that make a person look outside the relationship they don’t they don’t offer their intimacy that offer love they’re not honest they’re they can be verbally abusive physically abusive and yet them they’ll be totally outraged by this individual to try to get people to do is to say it takes two to tango and this cultural conditioning it doesn’t take humanity into it these are human beings meet their needs and you’re part of that process unless we can own our responsibility and also and I know that’s not culturally PC then couples are just gonna run to the same problem again with someone else or I never have a deep intimate relationship agree that I think it totally I mean look I write about affairs that doesn’t mean I condone affairs or I justify affairs it’s a benefit I’m trying to understand an experience that so many people go through and we need a more conversation about it because what’s happening is insufficient it’s not helping couples and it doesn’t really allow them to tap into their resilience it’s very clear that you can have you can say no to your partner for 12 years physically to any contact but your partner goes out once this is a betrayal and the other one is not you know it’s very but it is also clear that there are plenty of partners who are not participant you know I actually have seen that many times I’ve often said when I see someone have an affair I asked them have you lost someone in the last few years what does that mean there is something about yes life is short well you know earthquakes floods 9/11 my father dies my friend went too soon I got bad news at a doctor when mortality hits people say is this it is there more and it is something about that that lets them cross the line that they would never have crossed before and it has nothing to do with their partner and sometimes I have to say to the partner I’m really sorry to tell you but it has nothing to do with you it happened to you but you have nothing to do with this you understand that and that no-fault Affairs people don’t understand that no further divorce they finally got but no further fails they still don’t understand it’s actually it is this person’s responsibility and and you may have some compassion for it and ultimately you learn to understand it he didn’t do this oh she didn’t do this to do something to you he or she did this to do something for themselves love how you’re always constantly just expanding the definition of sex and the meaning of why someone might ever step out I’ve heard you say before that people often do what they think they’re allowed to do even just hearing the first time you taught that when you know and hearing the couple’s interact in your podcasts it’s – how sometimes where there’s loss of a loved one of a parent or grief that all of a sudden in some cases that might be the first opportunity of permission that a person feels like correct I’m now and tone like how you teach you get what you tolerate in the same ways it’s like but just feel how someone’s rules can bend in situations contextually I think has been so important for me to learn myself of explaining my own behavior and in partners that I’ve been with just wow that makes sense that maybe had nothing to do with me whether I’m the one doing it or on the other side just the motivations behind things think it’s just the questions that you both bring people ask of themselves enough they’re partners though invaluable what would you say to someone may you share an experience with me at one point if you discover that someone new you’re in relationship is having an affair with you how does somebody deal with that moment see that have been how would you what would you recommend for someone if they discover you know inadvertently for example I was sharing with computers and laptops and phones always accessible in relationships I have had an experience where it’s like in one second you’re whole you know a whole year of your life can unravel if you find something of your partner’s whether you meant to or not and just the impact of that moment today that I think it’s probably a pretty common experience for people where in one second oh my god it’s just my whole life just unraveled and I say and I say it is absolutely gutting because you no longer just find a little receipt in the pocket today you fight the entire digital archive and so it’s a death by a thousand cuts and I just and I that and I said all I can say say oh my god this is cutting do yourself a favor don’t read every message don’t you won’t be able to get them out of your head don’t look at the pictures it’s like watching the towers burn after 9/11 don’t don’t stand there and say dear friend who I love dearly who as lady had an affairs like that an affair and he found videos why’d you do that but it’s like you know you often say like sliminess an affair and your training hila don’t ask them all the details don’t ask them were they better than me don’t ask them where did you meet you know those questions people would ask why should they not ask that and how do you communicate so the first it’s a lot of different things and part of that is actually where the podcast comes in the broadcast was really I mean it’s a lot of things for the podcast but because I I for the first time opened the door of couples therapy you know nobody actually knows what goes on in the antechamber of a couple’s lives that’s the whole thing and and couples have and nobody talks about this so I wanted these conversations to become public you know for a long time the wise person sat in the center of the square and now they’re sitting in some office with closed doors and to open those conversations again is to bring the device person back into the village you know in the middle and and and and have have the windows open up so what I say is what do you know so far what do you know do you know the person have you wondered about this are you surprised have you been suspicious this is a bucket here they’re not in order have you been suspicious of this has there been any science for you that you that you began to wonder is something going do you want to learn more when they have a question I always say to them do you want to know the answer to your question or do you want your partner to know that you have the question hmm understand because I want you to know I’m asking myself you know did she scream you know what she did but I don’t want to know the answer because the answer I want I would stay awake months later still churning in my head with that answer but I want you to know where where my head takes me and it takes me to these crazy places like I can’t recognize myself with my obsession and with my my scavenging for the truth and then I want to know you know do you I would say look I completely know you want to immerse yourself in the digital archive and just like you know spend your night there reading I promise you you know this is you make your first question so what you want to ask is you know what you’re looking for this when you’re looking for this oh did this just happen and you didn’t resist it you know how did you justify it to yourself what gave you the permission did you think about me did you think about how it would affect me or us well you are afraid to lose me did you want me to find out did you hope I would never find out did you think about our children why this person you know what because I think it makes a big difference if you go to the best friend or if you go to somebody that nobody knows I mean there are gradations here of of betrayal you know what was it like when you would come home you know do you think I should forgive you do you wish I didn’t forgive you on some level do you want me to leave so that you don’t have to make the decision I have a hundred fifty questions on my list that I give them and they can choose from there but those are not the questions for day one and day one you have read in words as you don’t you want to ask what happened how long has this been going on have you been safe do I have something to worry about is there another child do I know this person is this person likely to come after us you know I saw this couple did a few days ago ahead and the wife absolutely wants to go and meet the other woman and he’s begging her not to go pick right because I think she lied so much to the other woman that he’s he would think she realizes it’s monstrous it’s monstrous for so many years he lied so much to the other person and then he thinks the wrath of the other person is gonna make her want to destroy them which is totally understandable – I mean this is there’s a reason people talk about crimes of passion even if there’s not a literal crime you know and then I heard yesterday that she didn’t go to Cydia the woman but the other woman came to their house and there are its devastation I mean this this is everyday therapy this is not like once a week anything you’re holding a system and what you want in the beginning is not to make any decisions your your limbic system is hijacked you can’t think don’t make decisions and don’t confuse the feelings about the affair with the feelings about your marriage and about your life and about the fact that your whole life as a lion is a fraud all of these thoughts are totally normal and natural but don’t make decisions based on that you want to be as much calm as you can you need a container you need a good therapist who holds this for you who gives you reassurance who tells you that you will get through this one way or another together or apart but you will you want current structure reassurance and you want to make sure that you’re safe and if you need to leave the house for a few days you leave the house for a few days and you want to find one or two people that you can talk to and who are not going to tell you what you should do who are gonna be there as friends and just listen while you’re figuring it out rather than project their own ideas on what you should do and how you should live your life and that’s what you’re going to do for the first month or two that’s it that’s a plenty so tell me you know you’re the beauty of you with this odd cats let’s talk about this because it’s gonna be wrapping up and I want people to have a place to get resources you know or things that sage and I did years ago who created ultimate relationship program and instead instead of just talking about these principles let’s take real interventions and let’s show real people law yes it’s happening and I think see anybody else do that before other than now you’re doing that I’m thrilled you’re doing that and one of things that shows up when I looked at some of these I was struck by how often you people talk about what they weren’t getting and you ask them did you ever ask for it yes and people who I don’t like almost universally people don’t ask what I want I’m gonna give you two questions why don’t we ask and then we talked about this what are the two or three things you must not do in this situation what are two three most important things to do in this situation that I’m going to lead you to the final question which is can real greatness come of goodness come from healing and affair the big cast came about because I had I had worked on the Showtime series the affair and somebody from Ted consulted on that show and and then June Cohen from Ted came to me and said we would like to do something similar in a podcast version and I said couples is not like that and he said she said in couples actually and it can be romantic cutters but I work with co-founder couples in companies I mean it’s all couples it’s often what I say that I didn’t mean to say but that then makes you say the thing that you didn’t really want to say either but you think that I made you say this thing and then I think that you set me up to do something which then leads me to say the thing that I’ve been wanting to tell you for so long but I didn’t mean to say to you in their circumstances and it goes like that in distort cast that I would love to show you what couples are really like and I said come and let’s do one session we’ve had almost a thousand couples apply just to be on the show and and the first season has more issues related to infidelity sexuality other issues but now we are in season two which will be released on October 6 and everything is going on I tuned and you know I’m doing all kinds of couplings I can’t parents I’m going to do siblings I’m gonna do more friends I mean it’s it’s really it’s going to look at diets I’m going to do co-founders and so and I wanted to what happens is that when you listen to the others you actually realize that you’re standing in front of your own mirror you don’t you being a failure but in fact you’re learning the language for the conversations that you may want to have yourselves so you always say to them especially when a couple stands up they’re usually either a warning or an example inaudible that’s there you working with these couples that are the one I listen to in particular say that they’re a year out of the affair from the infidelity yeah I’m listening and like you said okay I might think I’m on the outside and I catch myself feeling like oh wow I would never do that and I should be or I totally do that and I should it’s just such a powerful way to witness and take it with takeaways to adjust your own behavior so where should we begin is really that it’s that original audio series widow in which I would love for you without having gone through the same experience to get a universal message couples are it’s the company that has the most amount of expectations put onto it with the least amount of help and the biggest amount of disillusion and I wanted to give that sense of hope these people come in they spend three hours with me they come in with one story they live with another and when you listen I want you to be able to change your story and like you Toby I often say the story describes what you go through but it also shapes what you go through and so your people asking their story and in every episode they come in with one story and they live with another and that’s often about as much as you can do in three hours but it inspires people all over the world about that Wheatley life-changing and I always tell people divorce your story of limitation of your pain of being injured of being a victim and marry the truth that you’re the creator of your life you’re not a manager of your circumstances and you can change anything if you can own that responsibility but justice for a moment where do they go get this because I want to make sure people know where to go so there’s three different places people good is this there is the podcast which is where should we begin which at this moment is only on audible October 6 it goes on iTunes there was the YouTube channel which is a series of videos called moments where I do four-minute snapshots of a mode of these topics because not everybody wants to read the whole book and so it’s a multiple subjects related to relationships always thinking about how I can make people have better relationships with that sense of aliveness and vitality that they want and how can they learn it to do it and then there is a thing which I think is very interesting for the people that I would do it’s called sessions with a step round and basically like you I think that you know you look like you somebody who talks to a lot of different people but a lot of people today are having siloed conversations and sessions with me is basically an educational platform for coaches for therapists for people who are working on relationships and who want to be in dialogue across disciplines and across culture so I bring the best researchers and topologies therapists coaches from everywhere would work in the field of relationships to the platform and I interview them and then people can have live questions and community forms with them so that will develop a new conversation that is more truth-telling that is less judgmental that is more diverse about the subject of relationships everybody understands today that it’s at the center you know when I began would you and I would go talk about relationships in companies it was the soft skills it was the things that you brought somebody in when there was a real crisis nobody took it seriously but today everybody understands that the relationship quality is what determines the success of the company on the inside between the founders when a dutiful father’s work we know that more than 50% of startups fail because of the relationships between the co-founders falls apart and you know if they have the best idea so everything hinges on this it’s not just a romantic relationship but the romantic couple is the one that I have spent my time studying because it gives lessons to everybody else people have affairs in companies today – at the gig economy people have affairs all the time you know they decide to have their sense of aliveness so I you know I have to tell everyone I’ve learned an enormous amount from our collaborations together and from the trust and the confidence that you’ve given me over to the 14 years that we have worked together and and then just drove my own personal source to it you know yes you certainly I’ve always working together doing interventions together as I enjoy most because those very few people I can pitch and catch with other than my wife and and in this category you’re just such a genius I really thank you for that your also your book the state of affairs is coming out with ten for the US October 20 for the UK and then for the birds for the French for the Italian for the Spanish it’s all happening as we go to 218 but October 10 is the state of affairs for the US I just I hope that people listening today the real outcome I wanted today was to talk about something people just it’s taboo to talk about when a person who’s got more experience of how to guide people through this and I’m hoping that people listening to us will remember now that the quality of your life is the quality relationships and business and life and certainly your intimate life the most important one of all but that it isn’t something you just comes naturally that we just all assume that that it’s like learning is how to run a business it’s not something that just happens it’s something you got to make it a study you want life to get better if you want your relationship together you got to get better if you want things to change you got to change you’ve got to master these skills and so well I teach a whole body of knowledge in this area you’re the one other person that I have the most respect for in this area if I wanted to bring you on so I hope those listening will pursue this at whatever level they want whether it’s on video or your book or all the above but it’s something you’ve got to do to keep time – it doesn’t have to because there’s a problem the ideal time to do it is when there’s not a problem so you become skilled you never have these types of problems but I want to finish with the most important question we’ve a little bit – a little bit but you know you talked recently about how I think in your TED talk or somewhere I was really moved by it you talked about we’re all aware today that we used to have one job one career one you know for a lifetime people work to our Friday M forever and that was it right and today people have you know between 4 and 12 careers depending upon what generation they’re gonna be in tell me how does that relate to relationship and what what goodness what even greatness I sound that sounds absurd to say to somebody today because most people have that you know the shame of staying but what greatness can come from icing and working it out and transforming your affair into the quality relationship you desire deserve so I think that the question that you ask before you know what have I done what is been my contribution how have I invested in maintaining I see a meaningful passionate or a live or a fun relationship with my partner have I done my part have I shown that you know have I done my part I think everybody needs to reckon with that question you can do it in relation to your kids or to your spouse but at don’t just ask yourself have I done have I put in the best of myself here and the answer that questions got to be not did you give what you wanted to give but did you give what they needed right yes that’s the biggest challenges the people think I gave everything everything except with Indiana they would’ve left typically we give to the other not only what we want but we give to the other debt which we want them to give to us yes it’s so true so if I have to be left alone when I’m upset I tend to do that for you in fact but in fact you had a person who really needs a hug when you’re upset we tend to do for the other that which we want them to do for us and that is not what they want from us so I’m able to actually set yourself aside for a moment and listen and pay attention to what they ask and can you do it gracefully can you actually do something for the other just because it makes them feel good and then like you I will jump right over to the other person and I say and can you receive the fact that somebody did something just cause it’s you even though they would never do it if you were not there and I want them to do this because I wanted them to what it does well no they don’t want it they don’t need to please you can you feel that importance and actually take it rather than want them to want what you want so that you don’t have to owe them anything so I I think what you what happens today is that there is there is a short leash there is a kind of add-on I shouldn’t have to deal with this you know this is more than what it’s worth this shouldn’t be so hard and I’m like saying excuse me you’re willing to work in your business that hard but in your marriage it should come easy no my dear it’s not it will not and that means that it’s not hard work it’s also creative work if you need to have a nice meal you got to go get the right wines and you’re going to go to the market and you’re going to pick your ingredients and you’re going to be artful about it I will help you be artful about it if you just want to do fast I don’t know that I can you know you don’t need me for that you’re doing that perfectly fine on your own no but you look like you’re looking you will feel like you feel if you say I want something more you have to invest in it and I ask you know books about business people will be books about investment people will read books about which boat to buy but if you ask them when’s the last time you actually read a book about how to be a better level Route nothing excuse me and you’re surprised and you know bring the best of you and then we will start having it then we have something to talk about and I’ll help you get the best of you and put out the most of you when it comes to your relationship so that you will not lie there and know ultimately when you reckon with your truth that you just did it half-assed that you try to get away with it that you did the bare minimum because you do the bare minimum you’re gonna get to bear named your children will note your friends will know it and your spouse will know the only person who can actually leave is your spouse and your friends your children cops move as as easy they may ultimately do better show up show up it’s a it’s a and I’ve never known someone who ultimately when they do the right thing feels bad about it yeah no kidding okay you know and wishes they hadn’t you know there is integrity and passion and in you know what happens in passion and this is a very interesting thing in Affairs as well is that one person is lying to their partner they often feel that they are for the first time experiencing truth with themselves hmm you know you’ve got these two things happening at once you know it’s like bird away with it so I would say you know stop being a pleaser ask for what you want and when you ask you may have to accept a no and you may have to accept that sometimes a person will be hurt by it and then you will know that you really are fully invested in the relationship that you’re not just avoiding conflict and you treat you know in the end you resent it but you do what the other one Ransome your hope that you get your reward for having big good don’t be good what good can cover what your greatness can come out of a healed affair tell me that because you’ve dealt with so many it’s your mind what if the worst day of your life you turned the best day of your life that’s your line right it’s exactly that it’s it’s it’s that day when you thought everything just fell apart I mean everything falls apart you think because you know it’s one thing not to know your future and to know that the future is unpredictable but it’s another thing to certainly question your past and to think that you can no longer rely on anything that you thought was and you question everything so from that place when people really begin to heal and they rebuild they actually begin to become a new marriage inside this relationship and it’s not just they stay together because they don’t want to split and it’s not they stay together and they never talk about it it’s they actually start to say what can we learn from this how are we going to turn this crisis into an opportunity what does it tell us about the stuff that we let go by the wayside the stuff we neglect that the laziness we took on the complacency that became ours and another begin to really be intentional and diligent about it and people will tell you they it’s less when my partner cheated on me it becomes when we had a crisis ten years ago we had a crisis it becomes a real crisis and it becomes our crisis which we took as an opportunity to say you know what I really like this person but our relationship is in dire need of a tune-up or a complete new peace and we worked on this and turned it around we became attentive to each other in ways we had never been we changed the power dynamic we change the financial issues will change the sexual relationship we’ve started to listen to each other in a whole different way you know we showed up for each other and from that place they tell you you know this was the worst thing that happened to us but it just took us to a place where our relationship is better than it ever was before that’s what they tell you that’s beautiful and that can only happen if it’s not moralistic it’s not judgment because you can’t influence anyone you can’t understand anyone you can’t appreciate anyone while you’re judging them and if the ability to take that responsibility and to dig into all our sides I think it’s the most beautiful thing that you teach because without that you have nothing but lies you have lies to yourself thinking that it’s all someone else everything I always tell people you want to change another person change yourself because we’re all in a cybernetic person I come to you the same way every time you’re gonna have it predictably come back to me but if I can respond in completely different ways that’s the power it’s not changing your partner it’s changing yourself and I think if we can understand each other appreciate other dig underneath each other stop the blame and say listen what’s my part what’s our part and I love this we crisis for that that is beautiful and those couples I’ve met them – their relationships are stronger it’s the old you know burnt-out metaphor but it’s been said so many times because true it’s like a part of your body when the bone breaks where it heals becomes one of the strongest bones in the body thus leaving the relationship with its nature I’m so glad that you are doing this work and putting out your book in and giving people this vision because too many people are hurting too deeply and they’re looking outside themself for coaching from people that also don’t know how to find the answer it’s like I always tell people you don’t want to go to a doctor that’s ill I’m good smokes nobody’s broke it up tell you what to do or go to a psychiatrist that’s you know on Prozac and people do it all the time or go to somebody who’s you know broke financially but they’re giving you financial advice it’s like this is the beauty you’ve really studied the best patterns out there and you’ve brought the truth to people and the truth can set everyone free so I hope people are inspired by the session I’m excited to see you we’re gonna see you again am Ally here with our platinum partners in in October so as we’re going to leave is there anything we’ve not shared that you want to leave us a final note because I know I get you on your airplane here I want you miss your plane I’ll add two things that are important in this remake but it’s only the book as well is this when you ask a question don’t go for the sordid details don’t ask detective questions ask the investigative questions ask the ones that help you understand who your partner is and what this will represent for the two of you that separation is so crucial it doesn’t matter how many orgasms the other person had or if the scarf cost 300 it’s bad it’s bad that’s it it will be worse than what you thought anyway don’t worry about that there is no that you will never know always trust is a leap of faith Trust is an active engagement with the unknown this is what happens when you meet a partner in the beginning and this is what happens when you rebuild a relationship after an affair you trust as an active engagement with the unknown that’s a Rachel Botsman quote great woman who talks about trust and the second thing is and now I forgot what the next thing was gonna be people there’s two forces fear and faith you know what’s the difference they’re both imagination because nobody knows what the future is gonna really hold in any situation you’ve heard him do everything right and the person you’ve loved could die to be cognizant you could be killed you could have advanced but the difference between fear and faith is they’re both imagination but fears imagination undirected we let the environment run you it’s like weeds that grows automatically faith is deciding to be certain even though there’s no evidence and we’re born with faith it’s not a learned skill you can learn it as well but I always tell people how do you drive down a freeway or abetting the freeway how about a road where there’s nothing but a yellow dotted line to divide you from crazies that are going at you at 60 70 80 miles an hour and you know every single day people get killed every single day somebody falls asleep or they’re drunk and they come across the line so how do you leave the house because you were born with faith because you know without faith there is no future without faith you’ll never have what you desire without faith you’ll never be able to create anything and creating faith in the middle of uncertainty is what leaders do and at people that listen this type of high castes are those types of an individual so I’m calling to them saying bring the certainty that you use in sports so use in business or you used to lead or use with your children bring that to this situation and you can make it stronger than it’s ever been before but if you allow fear to dominate you instead of faith then there’s nothing that’s gonna make anything last in your life long term you’ll just leave this relationship only to find yourself in a new bag of challenges in the next one or finding yourself alone because you’re afraid to re-engage beautifully said beautifully said and I love our conversations and I want to continue the conversation with all of the people that are listening to us here today and that means you find me and all the social channels as well I think that this is a time in the world where listening has become crucial because people are not listening to each other nearly enough and everybody is talking pretty much in echo chambers and listening to your partner at a time when things are the most polarized is your biggest challenge but when you can do that you have really demonstrated your ability to enter into the shoes of another person and there is nothing bigger to expand yourself than the ability to also be able to stop thinking about yourself for a minute it’s kind of the perfect you want to be able to tap into yourself and you also on occasion just wanna when somebody tells you something don’t answer just ask another question just be curious for a minute it’ll make you more humble and it helped you with the fear of the unknown and the uncertainty it’s I couldn’t have said it better so it’s a treat we’ll be in Maui together movie a screen this time but we’re still there and and I would love to continue this conversation with everybody involved in every of the mediums that the world is affording us these days I’m sure they will and I’m really grateful we’ve had this conversation and I hope everyone listening really thinks about a relationship is not a place to go get it’s a place to go give certainly you want to receive their also but if your focus is on giving you hope you lit up and you know what what we give we get to experience what we hold back is what destroys any relationship and when we love is the worst thing you can do to yourself when you think you’re punishing someone else you’re really just punishing yourself and I think that’s the biggest mistake in relationships and if we can reconnect to the heart of the giver inside of us then we become our level because we are nothing but love and it’s really hard when it’s real unconditional love for anyone who turned their back on it so your greatest gift your greatest strength and your greatest protection from the pain you fear is to go deeper into the love and giving instead of pulling back and evaluating and limiting and and making it a transaction I was know it makes me think of an align that sometimes say to my couples I see you know your partner never belongs to you at best he or she is unknown with an option to renew enjoy your flight we’ll see you in October Maui with a plastic the Tony Robbins podcast is directed and hosted by Tony Robbins and Mary buchheit Carrie song is our executive producer strategy and distribution by a New York and Taylor Culbertson Jimmy Carvajal and Adriel de la Torre are a digital editors copyright Robbins Research International
